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aptera 150 miles per charge
Notes: I'm told the safest 3 wheeler has 2 front wheels.
There are a number of factors with respect to safety. I had a brief discussion with an online acquaintance that listed the Twike as being less safe due to the three wheeled configuration, single wheel in front. I took exception to it, and he politely educated me
I know that from personal experience that the Twike is quite stable due to it's low center of gravity (CG). In turns taken with too much speed, the rear wheels (where 90% of the vehicle weight is located -- you can actually pick up the front of the Twike quite easily, and it is a 500-600 lbs. vehicle) will actually slide/push out. It exhibits no 'roll over' tendancies at all like the kiddos that got killed driving 3-wheel ATV's or Farm Tractors when I was growing up. Both tractors and ATV's have a very high CG.
However, he mentioned that the roll-over factor was not the only safety issue, and that the 2-wheels in front/rear wheel steering (like the Dymaxion by Buckminster Fuller) was more stable when it comes to actually steering.
I can attest that piloting a Twike in gusting winds requires a firm grip on the steering tiller. This is most likely due to the lightness of the front end (the wind grabs it quite easily) as well as the fact that it is a single-wheel front steering vehicle.
alternate fuel engine to go farther the few times required and or for heat
Using an ICE for 'heat' in an EV is impracticle for a significant number of commuters (using US DoT 1990 Nationwide Personal Transport Survey, 50% of americans drive 25 miles a day or less). Heat is a byproduct of running the engine, therefore it must 'warm up'. One of the selling points of electric heat is that it is 'instant on'. True, it is one of the worst possible use of electricity in terms of efficiency, but in comparison to using an ICE engine for heat, very efficient. In my case in particular (a less-than 10 mile commute) in our ICE car the engine gets warm enough to provide heat right when I pull into work.
Then there's the question of whether heating is really needed or not. I Twiked to work all winter in Central Illinois in dress pants, dress shoes and a Columbia Leather coat (insulated, but not a 'puffy coat' by any means). Leather thinsulate-lined gloves, but no hat. I did switch to SuperWool dress socks, but plan on using them in the summer too since they're so durable/comfy. I put on earwarmers/scarf for the 100' walk into the building where I worked.
I was never cold, and the Twike does not have heat. It was of course stored overnight in a heated garage, so the internal air temperature was warm before I took off in the morning. On the way home it had sat outside all day, but was significantly warmed by the winter sun.
A far better question is air conditioning ;-) That same passive solar heat system and laminar airflow does not let a whole lot of air into the Twike, even with the cabriolet top off!
When people ask me about the lack of a heater in the Twike, I snarkishly reply "I firmly invested in Global Warming as a reality"

most car dealers and salespeople (PC not salemen) will take advantage of any demand. That's why the first hybrid I bought was a 2003 Honda civic. Not a bad car, the more I compared the Prius and that made me get one as soon as demand was lower.
Now I see why the Prius outsells the civic hybrid 3 to 1. The Prius is 10 times better. I want to make mine into a plug-in hybrid with lithium batteries. You can't even move an inch in the Honda hybrids without gas.
The new Toyota 1X hybrid will be even better. They are also testing plugin hybrids. I'd buy it from Toyota if they offer the plugin, if not I'll convert mine !
the solar stacks
Unfortunatly I can personally attest to the side-impact of the '03 model Prius... a couple of weeks ago I was on the interstate, nodded off, came too going 70mph in the ditch (speed limit in Indiana) and tried to gain control oversteered and came back onto the interstate 90 degrees to the path of an on-comming semi.
Got hit on the left-front quarterpanel sent us spinning airborne back off(a half-foot or more towards the passenger compartment and it probably would've been a different story) -- both my passenger and I -walked- away, the '03 Prius on the other hand, totaled.
Had over 100k miles on it, but since it was a Toyota I fully expected 250-300k... back to driving the Twike/91' Camry until Toyota comes out with their Plug-In models... Plug-In Bio-Diesel hybrid would be my dream car... diesel engines last for ever... Aptera abandoned their diesel version because of California emissions control... sucks because most folks who'd drive an Aptera would use biodiesel 99% of the time...

athena,
Back to your idea for a hybrid that is mostly electric with a back up engine of some type for heat and added range .
IE you wrote The combution engine permanently connected to a separate alternator, and a battery capacity capable of moving the vehicle 10 miles on electric power alone.
That is what the new plug-in hybrids are aimes at. The series hybrid. You could drive all electric on short trips, 10,20 30,40 miles depending on battery types and cost , then have the alternate fuel engine to go farther the few times required and or for heat .
This is also the goal of the new GM Volt E-Flex, but the possible availability is still 2010. Maybe it will come sooner. China is making one now called BYD that may be here in 2010 but will be in China later this year.
The Prius is still the closest clean ride so far. It does still use an infernal gas engine but runs in a much cleanr mode and gets 60 mpg, about 3 times other cars. It's a very big step in a cleaner direction !
...solar stacks
Hi jstack,
Since (I think?) you have a Prius? Does the paperwork give any reason why altering the car to be a plug-in hybrid voids the warranty? (or so I've heard?)
In it self, vehicle manufacturers not wanting the buyer to make *any* changes under warranty is not that unusual. But it seems odd that they would accept a variable quality input (gasoline) yet reject a uniform quality input (electricity)...
Just a little food for thought...

ct,
No, Toyota has honored all warrenties on plug-in modified vehicles. They don't encourage it but only stop supporting the batteries or any part you changed.
They have been very good with all the people at calcars.org and EnergyCS so far. In fact Toyota is now testing and will make a plugin version available in 2010 or so themself.
Personally I have never had any reason to use a warrenty on any vehicle I have owned. It's a nice feeling but Toyota is so reliable I bought a 05 Prius with no warrenty. It saved me 25% of the price.
the solar stacks
That's interesting.
I've always been impressed w/ Toyota reliability. You did confirm that they do dump the battery warranty though... That's still a big deal.
I bought my Saturn in '04 because I had to ('94 was totaled) I tried to get a Prius but the waiting list was months long...
I tracked one down and went to the dealership... 3 people standing in line while the salesman pushed the price $4500 over list to the kid in the chair. Can you say Hook, Line & Sinker!?
That kind-a disgusted me (I believe in the free market, but it was still sleazy), and I made it perfectly clear that I thought the salesman & dealership was exploiting the "gotta have it" mentality!
Needless to say I walked out... Good cars, disgusting *oily* salesmen!
I still want one, but the 04' only has 22K on it.
"e" tests apparently stimulate a segment of Government revenue. A great deal of the cost is for the "certificate" and taxes on salaries etc. Then there is the fancy equip and an excuse to hire IT types.
Then, of course, we have to consider the entertainment value, but I really don't think it offsets the disgusting waste of productive time and fuel used in the procedure. I wonder how much gas is burned off just so that clean fuel can be used for the test?
AND since we are already off topic - I had two other vehicles (wife and son's) that needed to qualify. I had one in to-day and heard from the garage vine that our Provincial Energy Minister Norm Sterling brought a 92 Ford in for "e" testing and it failed miserably.
I've got a 1967 Johnson outboard that spews less than 200ppm & 1%
I'm assuming your point is that the emissions tests aren't worth the recycled paper & soy based ink they're printed with.
The police idling thing is funny. The rational is to save maintenance & repair bills on starters and batteries... Many years ago my neighbors' home was broken into and vandalized (that's not the funny part). The cop dispatched to investigate/file left the car idling in the street while he took statements and prepared his reports...
It was early summer, a beautiful day, and he left the car idling when he came inside and took statements... after about 45 minutes we smelled that nasty odor of burning paint & plastic. We all acknowledged and ignored the odor for several minutes, not knowing where it was coming from... That's when the cops shoulder radio told him to investigate a vehicle fire in the area he was in...
That's when it got funny!
Just had an "e" test on a 95 Dodge van
The curb idle test has limits of
200 ppm for HC, the van passed with a reading of 9.
and CO% of 1, van passed with a reading of 0.00
This is a vehicle that gets it's oil changed once a year whether it needs it or not, and has about 40,000km on an engine rebuilt at about 300,000.
The city of Ottawa has passed a bi-law to restrict idling, (which does not apply for city vehicles, police, etc.). This bi-law is obviously another do- nothing fix.
The city used to have a staff member that earned $100,000 a year to purchase diesel fuel (used in buses, trains, fire trucks) as futures. He saved the city $500,000 a year because extra fuel purchased could be sold to other cities.
He was let go because the city needed to save money.
All hybrid vehicles I'm aware of have the same deficiency. They have a combustion engine that is large enough to move the vehicle briskly all by itself and an electric motor fitted so that both engines/motors drive through the same transmission.
You have mentioned the benefit (savings) of being able to charge the thing up at home but don't point out that hybrides have very short range on battery power alone. Most auto trips are 10 miles or less, so, here's what I would like in a hybrid.
A combustion engine and an electric motor sized so that they will both have to run to provide the performance that we need for hiway travel. Each engine drives the wheels through independent automatic transmissions. The combution engine permanently connected to a separate alternator, and a battery capacity capable of moving the vehicle 10 miles on electric power alone.
This will allow the electric drive motor to generate while braking and the combustion engine to run at optimum speed to recharge or replenish the batteries as needed.
Build something like that and you will outsell the air driven cars now being built by Tata in India. We still need the inefficient infernal combustion thing to melt the ice in the winter, but a small engine with the radiator under the driver's seat will be just fine.
athena
Interesting thing about hybrids... The benefit of the technology is predicated on a few things:
Start with a more aerodynamically efficient chassis. (duh) sorry.
1) They get the best *fuel* efficiency when they are running on 100% gas.
2) Eliminate times when the gas engine is getting 0% efficiency, .i.e. idling.
3) Revover energy otherwise wasted as heat, i.e. regenerative braking.
4) Recovered energy accelerates to best efficiency speed for gas engine.
5) The optimum state of battery charge is always <100% when moving.
6) The total size of the battery should be as small as possible to sustain the minimum number of stop/accelerate cycles based on real driving conditions. The optimum is 1 cycle, the real world requires more.
That's the ideal 'fuel-hybrid' cycle.
The "plugin-hybrid" only needs to vary the ratio of primary energy storage components "gas tank" to "battery" based on the ratio of expenses.
That's an ideal plugin hybrid.
If the engine is too small to sustain normal travel the vehicle becomes an 'engine assisted electric'. This may be more "efficient" but the drawback is limited range or duty cycle (given the current infrastructure).
There is currently no ideal EAE. Not a 'dis' just an observation based on duty cycle, and the lack of "quick-charge" capability in the spirit of "Fill'er up! Oil's fine. Washer fluid's a little low, which way is the can?"
The model extends into fuel cell hybrids, compressed air, flywheels, etc... Liquid fuel is the gold standard from the drivers point of view. That counts for a lot.
I wish I could have had a 150 mile range electric when I was commuting 65 miles each way! I was getting >30MPG, but my little Saturn needed ~7.5 gallons of gas every other day. But that was back in '02-'03 Gas was down to $1.04 for a while... Lots of folks thought: "What the heck! I'll get me an SUV." Aaahhh... Suckers! (sorry)

You can now order your very own aptera all electric for about $26K. The info they have on the design and features is very impressive. It looks like driving the future. check out their website ay www.aptera.com
the solar stacks

just a note to update you all on aptera. They have signed on to be in the X-prize for efficient vehicles. They are listed on good for the first 31 companies like Tesla and many other efficient vehicle makers.
This should give us many more efficient choices even if the companies all can't win the millions for the top prize. This is a contest we all can win.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/08/01/automotive-x-prize-announces-31-compe...
• Aptera Motors – California, USA
• Commuter Cars Corp. – Washington, USA
• Cornell University – New York, USA
• DEHyds – Washington, USA
• Delta Motorsport – Northants, UK
• Desert Fuel – Arizona, USA
• Disruptech – California, USA
• Dragonfly Technology LTD – Northhampton, UK
• Fuel Vapor Technologies – British Columbia, Canada
• GreenIt! – Oregon, USA
• Herf Duo – Berlin, Germany
• HyKinesys – California, USA
• Kinetic Vehicles – Oregon, USA
• Kuttner Doran Inventions – Virginia, USA
• Loremo AG – Munich, Germany
• Maine Automotive X – Maine, USA
• MDI, Inc. & Zero Pollution Motors LLC – New York, USA
• Michigan Vision – Michigan, USA
• MotoTron Corporation – Wisconsin, USA
• Phoenix Motorcars – California, USA
• Prometheus Systems, LLC – Arizona, USA
• Porteon Electric Vehicles, Inc. – Oregon, USA
• Psycho-Active – Georgia, USA
• Roane Inventions – Texas, USA
• Society for Sustainable Mobility – California, USA
• Spirit One – Alberta, Canada
• Tesla Motors – California, USA
• Valentin Technologies – Wisconsin, USA
• Velozzi – California, USA
• X Tracer – Winterthur, Switzerland
• ZAP Motors – California, USA

links to stories and pictures
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/aptera-concept-car-330mpg-under-20k-1...


bio-diesel is much better than gas. But it does make 50 % pollution compared to gas. It also gets 0 mpg while sitting at a stop sign or traffic light. It also wastes braking energy.
Combining bio-diesel and a plug-in hybrid would be excellent. GM proposes to do something similar in the E-Flex but doesn't have it out yet. VW also talks about it.
I can't drive talk.
So far only hybrids use no fuel at a stop, also regenerate to stop wasting brakes, making brake dust and losing energy. Hybrids like the prius can become plug-in hybrids.
solar stacks
I'm really hoping for this car to materiallize. I'm probably the biggest Aptera fan out there
You can find more info on this hybrid at: Aptera Fan Forum
Hi Solar Stacks
You guys have really provided some great post on this site - I try to read as much as I can I've learned more for FixingThePlanet.com and people like you than ANY other site out there! I find the BioDiesel option very interesting - I'm thinking of purchaing a new car and was looking to go all electic but that may not work for my lifestyle as I sometime do need to drive over 200 miles at a time - I was going to go with a Hybrid but I've been hearing more about BioDiesel and how effecient the new Diesels are and how clean they are. However, there isn't much info on how clean it is or isn't and the basic - if you guys know anything on this subject, I'd LOVE to learn more.
Thanks for all the good info -
I love you guys and I LOVE this site - I tell eveyone I see as there is so much to learn and even the ads are useful - I actually have been clicking on them and I've purchased a few things! Who would have though it! I usually NEVER click on ads and an typically an internet AD-HATER- but not here!
Loving Mother Earth and wanting to keep her heathly!
Hayden
The VW turbo diesel gets about 70 miles to the gallon. My kid has one that was sold in Canada but not in the US because US fuel was too dirty (too much sulphur). Very high pressure injectors. There is a bio conversion that uses a separate tank etc. so start and run out can be done on regular fuel. These fuel tanks are heated with engine heat.
Then there is a mechanic friend who works on city buses. He says that bio fuel gums up the parts requiring excessive cleaning, and they wear out sooner because the sulphur in the regular diesel acts as a lubricant. Go figure.
And the Dodge Cummins engine doesn't like the diesel fuel made from tar sands. - I'm sure all these things are being fixed as we speak.
I read about a car built before WW2 that had a two cycle gas/kerosene engine that ran at a constant 900 rpm to drive a generator which fed the battery and electric motor and got 75 miles per gallon. Ottawa Citizen article sometime within the past few weeks. Heavy vehicle, top speed 30
And we have been running our chain saw on gas/Crisco. Don't know if the oil mixes properly but smells good.
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Even a clean electric vehicle can waste energy. A very light yet safe vehicles would be better as an electric than a big heavey vehicle.
Check out this 3 wheel 2 seater. http://apteramotors.com/
It is very aerodynamic and the designer hopes to sell it for under 20K. That's still a few bucks and would compete for the X-prize being offered for a 100 mpg + vehicle. as a bio-diesel they think it will get 250 mpg.
The competition in this size vehicle could spur some very creative choices. There is the Twike a very efficient 3 wheeler and the Sparrow NmG 1 seat 3 wheeler. Check them out at www.evfinder.com
Notes: I'm told the safest 3 wheeler has 2 front wheels.
which one would you prefer ?
what other choices do you know of ?
solar stacks