Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting the attention it deserves

GrnSam

I feel we finally got a win yesterday! Here is the article that I read and that I'm sure many have you have hear but it deserves to be seen again!:

The Supreme Court agreed Monday to hear a case that will determine whether the Bush administration must regulate greenhouse gases, which could have broad consequences for California's landmark law reining in vehicle emissions to fight global warming.

The case, brought by California, 11 other states and by environmental groups, is being heralded by legal experts as one of the most important environmental issues to be heard by the high court in years. The justices' decision could touch virtually every U.S. industry, from automobile makers and oil companies to airlines and electricity producers.

"This could give us the answer to how the justices feel about one of the most important environmental issues of the future," said Robert Percival, director of the University of Maryland environmental law program. "That is particularly significant because there are other cases percolating up through the courts where states have sued electric utilities over their emissions of greenhouse gases."

The case, which is likely to be argued this fall and decided by next spring, could also put new pressure on the White House and Congress to act on climate change. A National Academy of Sciences study released last week reflects the growing consensus among scientists that the Earth is hotter today than in any period over the last four centuries and probably over the last 1,000 years.

President Bush, while campaigning for president in 2000, pledged to regulate carbon dioxide. But since taking office, he has opted for voluntarily reductions of greenhouse gas emissions by industry, an approach favored by automakers, oil companies and electric utilities.

The case began in 1999, when environmental groups petitioned the Environmental Protection Agency to regulate vehicle emissions of gases such as carbon dioxide, which are released by burning fossil fuels and trap solar heat, creating the warming effects of a greenhouse. The groups argued that the gases should be classified as air pollutants that endanger public health and must be regulated under the 1990 Clean Air Act.

In September 2003, the EPA's general counsel, Robert Fabricant, issued a memo saying the Clean Air Act does not authorize the agency to regulate carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

Environmental groups sued challenging EPA's decision and were joined by California, Connecticut, Illinois, Maine, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, the territory of American Samoa, New York City and Baltimore.

In July 2005, a three-judge panel of U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia issued a confusing 2-1 decision that sided with the administration. Legal experts say separate opinions issued by the three judges reflected sharply different ideologies on the polarizing issue of climate change.

One of the judges, David Sentelle, an appointee of President Ronald Reagan, wrote that environmental groups and states lacked standing because they failed to show specific injury from climate change that affects the world as a whole. Judge Raymond Randolph, appointed by President George H.W. Bush, expressed sympathy with the administration's argument that unilateral action by the United States to limit carbon dioxide "could weaken efforts to persuade developing countries to reduce the intensity of greenhouse gases."

The dissenting judge, David Tatel, an appointee of President Bill Clinton, sided with environmental groups and the states, writing: "I have grave difficulty seeing how EPA ... could possibly fail to conclude that global warming 'may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare.' "

Lawyers for the plaintiffs believe the lower court's decision is ripe to be overturned because the Clean Air Act requires the EPA administrator to set standards limiting any air pollutant from vehicles that could jeopardize public health or welfare. Another section of the act specifically cites impacts on climate as something that can bring about federal regulation.

"The only way you can deny this action is to twist the words of the Clean Air Act and twist all the science of what people are saying about global warming," said Joseph Mendelson, legal director of the International Center of Technology Assessment, the group that initially filed the case.

The Supreme Court will have to consider two key questions: First, does the EPA have the authority under the law to limit greenhouse gases? And if it has the authority to regulate, is it obligated to do so in light of growing evidence of the effect of greenhouse gases on climate?

The case also will be a key test of the environmental leanings of the high court under Chief Justice John Roberts, which split last week in a contentious decision that pitted protection of threatened wetlands against private property rights.

The University of Maryland's Percival said conservative justices may have taken the case to address the issue of standing -- that is, whether environmental groups can claim they are injured parties so they can file suit. However, that argument could be more difficult because a dozen states have joined the case.

"Scalia has been trying for years to keep environmentalists out of the courts," Percival said. "It could be of even broader significance than just the global warming issue. It could affect environmental litigation generally."

The case also has major ramifications for California's landmark greenhouse gas emission standards, which will be phased in starting for cars and light trucks in the 2009 model year, reaching a nearly 30 percent cut in emissions by 2014. California, which has special authority to regulate air pollutants, must request a waiver from the EPA to put its new rules in effect.

"If the Supreme Court upheld EPA's position and said there is not authority (to regulate greenhouse gases), that would be bad for California's initiative," said David Doniger, senior attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council's Climate Center. But he believes the high court is likely to at the very least amend the earlier decision.

"We are encouraged because if the court had been happy with the lower court's decision and wanted to let the administration kick the can on the issue, they could have just left the lower court decision as it was," he said.

In Sacramento, legislation that would take California beyond the regulation of tailpipe emissions and require businesses to reduce greenhouse gas emissions was approved in the Senate Environmental Quality Committee on Monday night.

The bill, backed by Assembly Speaker Fabian Núñez, D-Los Angeles, would require industries to report the amount of greenhouse gases, such as carbon dioxide, they produce and require reductions of those emissions beginning in 2012.

Business interests opposing the measure say reducing emissions will increase energy costs, slow productivity and give other states a competitive advantage over California companies.

Backers say that not combatting global warming would lead to coastal cities being deluged by rising sea levels, increased risk of flooding from snowpack loss and poorer air quality.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has not taken a position on the bill, AB32, despite calling for reductions in emissions to 1990 levels by 2020, the same time frame contained in the bill.

We're making a difference - we all have to keep it up - keep particpating in forums like we have here! Thank you Fixing The Planet! You're helping to make a differnce and I feel good knowing that I'm a part of this cause!

GrnSam Smiling



athena
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting the attent

Dear Stanley.

Forget about global warming.  Spent some time looking up - resource depleation: fuel, water, land, soil quality - renewable energy - global population and the implications of the inevitable crunch - individual consumption; the needs and wants of developing economies - toxic accumulation and the effects on air, water, soil, food and health - urban planning; walk to work, grow your own - sustainable buildings- waste management - the Asian Brown Cloud - Dead zones in oceans..........and tell us what you discover.

You too just might get a little excited and start praying.  The scientists are obviously talking a different language that common people don't seem to have the time to learn. 



athena
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting the attent

I didn't think about environmental anything until last year and I am still developing an understanding about the problem. I would like to assist with whatever it is that needs to be done - if it needs to be done.

Your review of my study to date and suggestions for improvements would be appreciated. Please send an "e" address where I can send a pdf.


projectathena.ca@gmail.com



childress
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting the attent


I say let the climate do whatever it is going to do. The simple and
*technical* truth is that there is very little we can do to alter it.


"The avalanche has started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -- Kosh Naranek

Huh. Well, a starting attitude like that makes it very difficult to accomplish anything Eye-wink

Imagine if you will, a sequestering coal-fired power plant such as was planned for Futuregen... where the CO2 and other pollutants are sequesterd deep in the ground.

Now take a biomass plant like Miscanthus (www.miscanthus.uiuc.edu) which is perennial in growth and requires nearly zero input (care required only in the 1st three years), can be planted in areas food crops can't, provides a protective environment for animals (it is best harvested in winter) and regrows upto 30 years... and it can be co-fired in percentages upto 50% in coal plants...

And then you combine the two, and you have atomspheric scrubbing of CO2 taking place.  Very ala Star Trek, and also very possible.

There is very much we can do about it, it just requires novel thinking and combining technologies -- who would've thunk that a coal powerplant could be a good thing?

M@

============================

Commute Suck? Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike

--

Commute Suck?  Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike 



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting the attent

Hi childress,

  My position isthat while I applaud every person that saves a little here and a little there, the reality is that unless and untill we make the grand changes *necessary* to truly influnce things,  no individual or small group of pepples[sic] will stop the crushing momentum of what is currently in motion.

  I want to effect real change, but I need help.  I need folks in a position to commit to hundreds or thousands of concentrating solar thermal distributed electrical generators.  1 is nice, but it's a pebble.

  Please don't think I'm so naive to think a check is forthcoming... Although that would be really cool.

  What I'm after are binding letters of intent.  I need to see that companies are committed to X# of systems that meet all criteria and can be bought for an agreed on price in a certain time... months to years. 

 



Delvin
Re: Global Warming -

There is no dispute. It is clearly that we should discuss which ways or methods to resolve the global warming or other emission pollution.

Carbon Tax?

Cap-and-Trade?

Dual Currency Model?

... ...



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming -

Of course there is dispute! I dispute it... and I agree with you that we should discuss methods to reduce pollution. However we have vastly different motivations.

I say let the climate do whatever it is going to do. The simple and *technical* truth is that there is very little we can do to alter it.

"The avalanche has started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote." -- Kosh Naranek

1) The absolute last thing we need is a carbon tax!!! The government has caused the problem, and giving politicians more $$$ to fix something they do not understand is a recipe for disaster.

2) Dual Currency Model? -- I dunno either. sounds like mumbo-jumbo.

3) Cap-n-Trade... has some merit. Unfortunately it's participants frequently do so only to avoid the tax penalties (see item 1 above)

If you would, please chime in and look at the ZECFE-WWYP thread.

 

Even though I'm in the solar business, and saying the things I say are frequently seen as being "againgt my own good interests", the evidence I've seen has me thoroughly convinced that trying to fight global warming has no real chance of accomplishing it's goal or any other real effect...

... except reducing pollution. And that is a really good reason to conserve!!!



athena
Re: Global Warming -

ctyankee

Would we pay more for electricity produced from coal and less for wind generated power? If it's all averaged for the consumer and subsidized the way it is now, the individual will have little motivation to conserve.

Waste Management is a US company that is just setting up a local generating plant using methane from a local dump. It will cost $10 million to set up and will produce 6.5 megawatts (enough for 6400 homes) for 10 years.

Waste Management gets paid 11 cent/kwh from Ontario Hydro and consumers buy it for 4.3 cents/kwh. (regulated retail price) and make up the difference with their taxes. The Mericans get paid $62,634,000 over ten years.

If we had to pay the 11 cent /kwh for our electricity there would be a strong incentive for 6400 homeowners to invest $1562.50 each for a $10 million plant and get free energy for 10 years.

That delivery-ownership-management-banking-political-corruption-graft-overhead sure drives the price up!

 

 



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming -

That's capitalism, pure & simple.

You can blame WM or OH, or the voters... take your pick.

What would you want to organize 6400 folks into coughing up $1600 each?

Please note it's not free energy, they would've paid up front...  $13.34/month

This is just one more example of the profit potential in energy... Yet I can't get the decision makers to recognize it. 

I'll say it again... I'm looking for binding letters of intent. 



athena
Re: Global Warming -

ctyankee,  

- How much for one of your smallest viable systems - and what will it produce in electricity and possible space, swimming pool and domestic water heating potential?   What wall or roof space is required?

 



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming -

Hi Chris,

   Just like I told the guy from India Telecom.  We could create a single bi-panel collector, and couple it to a 5kW 1800 rpm (1500 rpm) synchronous AC generator.  The same panel could collect/produce ~ 60kW of heat if that has the goal.  Bi-panels are ~ 21ft long, and the width varies with the latitude of the site.

  At that size we can get the electric version below $4/W, and the thermal-only version below $1/W.   My new partners are not interested in 1's & 2's unless it utility
size anymore. 

  They want to do hundred MW complexes...  So unless I can
come up with commitments for channel orders the little ones aren't
gonna get built for quite a while, if ever.  Too much fixed cost in
each one.

  As I've been posting lately, what I need are binding letters of intent.  I need commitments to ramp up factory scale production.  Can you tell me how many you'll need and at what interval?  100/mo, 200/mo,  10,000 pieces over 2 years... Will you sign a binding letter of intent?  The Indian fellow wants one for every cell tower in the country... That's the kind of numbers my partners want to see.

 



jstack6
jstack6's picture
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

all scientist agree the effects of global warming are real. They are also much larger than any dared predict.

They also agree the industrial age has release more GHG Green house gases like CO2 than ever before. The only few who disagree are making a living denying it, oil company "reseachers" and the like.

It is fact. There is no dispute.

 the solar stacks

--

solar stacks



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

The only thing all scientists agree on is that all scientists never agree on anything. (sorry)

CO2 may be a GHG, but it's effects are dwarfed by the most powerful one in the atmosphere... dihydrogen-monoxide or H2O

I'm all for conservation, for conservation's sake.  And my company will benefit by a raised awareness of the environment.  But I can't in good conscience say that we hava had any real effect on global climate change that cannot be better explainec by the superposition of cycles that have been occuring for billions of years. 



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Ok ctyankee – You’re killing me a little bit here…Your in
the business of providing “Green Solutions” ie. Solar, but you don’t believe
that Global Climate Change may have …something…to do with the Billions of
people…anyway.

Scientist certainly may differ from time to time with their opinions
but if you’re going to make statements the CO2 has nothing to do with rising
global temperatures and that it’s just a natural cyclical event, I’d urge you
to provide some hard data. There really
isn’t any dispute to the direct correlation of Global Temperatures rising with
the increased levels of CO2 – that my friend is just a fact. CO2 is only one GHG yet it’s effects are the
most noticeably because of our use of Cars, Coal Burring Plants to produce electricity,
etc, etc.

I agree that it will take a huge effort of the world to slow
down AND hopefully reverse the levels of GHG and thus our issues of Global
Warming but those that just want to “decide” I’m just a pebble, the avalanche
has started, I’m going for the ride….I’m guessing may be may of the same that
vote for Bush, A SECOND TIME! We are not
all doomed and to simply decide to deal with the effects of Global Warming at
to admit to ignorance of the HUGE global devastation we face. It’s the “not in my back yard” mentality…People
can be so selfish, if it impacts them, then it’s almost a “forget” thing – too much
effort to think about, No Driving and waking…too much money to change the light
bulb, too easy to take for granted the heat that comes out from the furnace.

If you’re in this business, I think you REALLY need to bone
up on what effects we (humans) are having…It’s no coincidence that since the industrial
revolution and the rapidly growing population (exponential growth) – We just
can’t bury our heads in the sand – It boils down to whether your aware of our
collective effect and willing to be a pebble that actually does have a vote…

Billy



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Hi Billy,

   You misunderstood the point I was making.  I never said there was no correlation, clearly when one views the plots of temp & CO2 against time in years there is some type of correlation.   But that's not proof, it's 2 lines on a graph, that move in step.

  What I'm maintaining is that the *signal* being plotted on those charts is *swamped* by the noise.  It's like hearing voices in the static.  Remember H2O -- IS THE MOST POTENT GHG, BY A FACTOR OF 200 OR MORE.

  When daily temperature variations are so much larger than the signal being measured, the analysis comes under question!  Just because a questionable analysis says "the sky is falling", I'm not going to panic!  I want to see a piece of the sky.

  Look, maybe the temp has risen in 150 years... I still say so what.  Show me a map of the ancient world with a snow free Greenland, and coastlines pushed inland by the 20-40 ft of elevation the alarmists are claiming...

  As far as the pattern being cyclical and me providing data, I don't have to, because I don't care if the temp goes up or down by 5, 10, 20 degrees C ... it has happened it before, it will happen again people or not!

  That said, I do want to conserve fossil fuels, they are a dwindling resource, and we're wasting them.  Solar can and will be cheaper, more sustainable, and -- less damaging/disruptive to the environment --  See I acknowledge that aspect. 

  See, I only object to the religion of "Global Warming" ( capital G, capital W),  I'm with you 100% on not damaging the environment any more than necessary.  Furthermore, people do bury their heads in the sand, we're in agreement on that one too. 

  Having ones vote count...  I live in CT (deep blue) and no I didn't vote for 'W' either time... I didn't vote for 'unca Al' either... So not being counted is a fact of life.

  We can make a difference, but only if we wake up, take our heads out of the sand and commit to solar energy on a massive scale.  I'd like to ask you(or anyone that is serious) for binding commitment letters for 1000 units per month.  At that rate we can make a dent in a decade or so... anything less,  is simply going for the ride on the snow-ball express.  Whaddya say?



childress
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Ctyankee is correct in this regard:  It is an oft-repeated quote of statisticians that "correlation does not mean causation".  That being said, water vapor levels in the atmosphere have not dramatically increased.  CO2 has.  So ctyankee's assertion of H2O being the leading GHG is a bit of a red herring -- it is a true statement in and of itself, but it is a distractor.  It is also significantly more difficult to control atmostpheric H2O levels than CO2. As the earth warms, you'll get more water vapor in the air, increasing clouding and reflecting sunlight away, cooling the earth causing it to percipitate (rain) back down, reducing the cloud layers.  The problem is there is no such 'cycle' for CO2 released from the underground carbon pool (oil, coal).  See Venus (as in the planet) for a reminder of the synergistic effects of CO2 and H2O run amuck.

While ctyankee is all for cleaning up pollution, the failure to recognize CO2 as a major post-Industrial age pollutant is disconcerting: his desire to clean other pollutants out of the air without removing CO2 will actually increase global warming, as the pollutants in the air reflect sunlight in a process known as global dimming, as shown in the 3 days after 911, where the decrease in airplane contrails resulted in a spike in temperatures bringing them inline with the global pan evaporation rate predictions (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sun/).  Essentially smog has kept global warming in check.  Wry humor.

As for the question of whether CO2 is a pollutant, see research done at the University of Illinois regarding the effects of high CO2 levels (year 2030 estimates) on food crop production http://www.news.uiuc.edu/scitips/03/0730crop.html

If you recall your basic buffer solution chem labs, you'll appreciate just how rapidly things can change:  In a buffered solution, the PH remains constant when you add an acid or a base to it, and you can usually add quite a bit until just-one-more-drop causes the PH to change completely.  This is similar to the situation with CO2 -- currently there are various buffering pools, the ocean being a major one.  Curiously (and by that I mean frightening), the ocean's ability to hold CO2 dimenishes as the ocean warms, so once the water temperature rises, it will start releasing more of its captured CO2. Eek.

So in this case, 'the avalanche' hasn't started yet, and the pebbles (as in, one-more-drop in the buffered solution chemistry example) do in-fact have a voice, and can indeed make a difference.  Ctyankee does in fact recognize this, as if he can connect with the right individual 'pebbles' atop the right corporate ladders he can get his commitment to 1000 units/month.  Individuals and the connections between them are highly important -- ask Obama.

Whether you believe CO2 rates are responsible for global warming or not, the mere fact alone that research indicates that it will severly impact our ability to grow food crops should be scary enough to forge an all-out effort to sequester it.  Since it effects the photosynthesis ability of leaves, this will also impact other plants in our environment, something ctyankee supports saving.

With respect to CO2 management, a sequestering coal plant (such as Futuregen - http://www.futuregenalliance.org/) coupled with co-firing with 50% biomass such as Miscanthus will have a better net impact on atmospheric CO2 levels than "solar energy on a massive scale", as the biomass would extract the CO2 while growing, and the coal plant would inject it back into the ground (sequestering), offsetting the continuing release of CO2 by non-sequestering coal plants.

While most folks are all for increasing 'free' electricity generated by the sun (and wind is indirect solar power), it won't happen overnight.  There needs to be an interim step, like what is happening with hybrid cars -> plug-in hybrids -> full-blown EV's.  Convincing existing coal fired plants to convert/upgrade to be able to co-fire biomass is a relatively easily achieveable upgrade that would have an immediate impact on CO2 released from the underground storage pool, even for non-sequestering plants.

Not that I discourage working for the implementation of direct solar plants, it's just that it is not the 'magic solution'.  It will take many different power technologies, some lobbying big business/government, and others making impacts at the grassroots level.  My rationale for a multi-faceted approach, see what happened to Futuregen w/r/t big business/government 'committing' and then at the last second backing out.

--

Commute Suck?  Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike 



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Thank-You childress!

  You also made a number of excellent points.  I'm actually very fond of the notion of sequestering CO2 by using O2 enriched fluidized bed combustion.  (another thread).

  The difference in my approach to solar is that I want to implement smaller scale, rooftop sized, installation.  The area I'd put under panel is already denuded of vegetation, so I take no farm or forest land out of the carbon cycle.

  Further by making it possible & practical to convert a larger part of the automobile fleet to cheaper solar-electric power (plug-ins) without burning coal and the concurrent increase of CO2.

  We want to bring on line enough solar-electric generators to provide the equivalent of 1/2 million barrels of oil per day in 5 years.  And we can do that by restricting ourselves to commercial buildings, big-box stores, strip malls, community centers, warehouses, distribution centers, etc...

 Happy Earth Day!  --   The Light is Green!



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

You refer to H2O being a potent GHG – you do know that H2O
is not a gas but water…right?  Do you
mean N2O?  Let me provide some factual
data points that will be helpful…CO2 is on the low end in terms of potency
however, we produce more of it by a huge factor than any of the other GHG – CH4,
N2O, SF6, HFC – these are all much more potent than then CO2 and need to be
watched as well – however, these would not be “noise.”  

I find it interesting that you use the word “religion” of
those that believe there is a direct connect. 
I really don’t think it’s so much a “religious belief I have but rather
a realization that there is too much mounting evidence to support the reality
of the dramatic change we’re heading into to.  You casually say in effect, that you don’t
care about 5 degree or even a 20 degree change…5 degrees would translate into
mass devastation that we would all feel regardless of where you live or your
social or financial standing.  We don’t
have pictures to view but we do have core samples which can provide every bit
of evidence of photo would.  What is
happening now is not part of a cycle but rather our direct effect from our consumption
thus producing these GHG – some more dangerous than others but all having the
same effect.  

I say, error on the side of caution…if you’re not an expert,
don’t dismiss something as important as our planet and the direct effect we “may”
be having on it which “might” impact the lives of MILLIONS and “might” have a
negative lasting legacy that we leave to our kids and generations to follow…

 

Fossil Fuels – will eventually be gone – they are not
renewable and there for it is a matter of time – if they had not effect on our
lives – than I’d be in line to get a huge SUV and say, it really doesn’t matter
– at some point we’ll have another form of energy to power our 8000 pound
trucks to carry about 200 pounds to the grocery store.

I’m so adamant because your argument can be very dangerous.  People ultimately believe what they want to
believe and with that which fits into their lives the easiest.  If we don’t ALL take some steps- you may just
get to see that 5 degree increase after all…

Billy



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Billy,

   I really mean H2O -- good 'ol water vapor!  Why do I call it a GHG? because it blocks the radiation of heat back into space.

  Why is it 200X more potent than CO2, because in the desert, the nighttime temp can fall below freezing, from more than 100 during the days...They call it radiational cooling... it occurs in the dry clear air.

  But, on those rare desert nights when the shy is cloudy... and I mean even thin wispy clouds not heavy opaque clouds, the ground stays much much warmer.  This is known as reflective warming... it occurs from the moisture.

  Water vapor also transports the heat from the tropics to the poles.  This is how most if the heat of the sun, gets schlepped around.

  There is no doubt that CO2, SOx, NOx, CH4, and the whole slew of other GHGs float up high in the atmosphere and raise the apparent thermal background temperature of space to the observed -150 that we see today.

  But attributing the changes in troposphere climate to 50-60deg per day to variations in the high stratosphere of 1-2 degrees per century, is just bad science, and worse logic.  It's a simple minded grasping at straws by climate scientists that need to get their educations funded by government handouts.

  I can callously call for the 5-10 rise, because there is little that we can do to change the outcome if that's what the astronomical cycles have in store for us.  I can only prepare, by securing my own sources of energy, land and water.  If 6+ billion others fail to do the same... 

 

  I call it a religion because you are being asked to believe in something that you cannot observe.  The edicts come on down from a "priesthood" that claim superior understanding than the common man.  It also makes folks feel good that they are helping all mankind.  That doesn't make it true.

 

  Again, don't misunderstand me... I want to see a decline on our dependence on fossil fuels!  I think it's a waste to run a giant SUV around town.  I'm one of the most eco-conscious people you'll likely talk to.  I reuse *everything* until it's exhausted... it's borderline OCD... ( I pocket my paper napkins on the rare occasion I eat out, and use them until they're shreds... then toss the remains into the wood stove.  I waste very very little!)  I don't run errands, I combine trips, we shop with cloth bags, don't but bottled water... the list just goes on and on... 

 

  So, about those steps you feel we should take, again I'll ask... Will you commit to a solar powered system?  Zero emissions, $5/Watt, 20 yr guarantee?  How many can I count on you to support?  I'm not asking for your $$$ yet, just your signed letter if intent to purchase after I demonstrate the working system...  Are you voting or going for the ride?



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

BTW - This may be useful...

Below I’ve listed the global warming potential (GWP) of the main Kyoto
gases:

CO2: 1

CH4: 21

N2O:
310

HFCs:  range from 150 -
11,700

PFCs:  range from 6,500 –
9,200

SF6: 
23,900

Hmmm - no sign of H2O....



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

"no sign of H2O..." 

  That's because you're looking at a political document.

  As childress pointed out, we have zero ability to *control* the quantity of water vapor in the atmosphere.

  He called my citing H2O a "red herring" <grin> and that says that at least 2 of us understand the problem.

  The gasses mentioned are far more potent than CO2, but exist in minuscule quantities... PPB or PPT.  Water exists in percentage quantities.

   It also moves into and out of the atmosphere regularly and in massive quantities, transporting **enormous** quantities of heat.  So much heat that it can change the temperature of the atmosphere and ground by 20, 40, 60 degrees in a matter of minutes.

  Yet, "scientists" claim to be able to detect a change of 1-2 deg per century among all that noise?

   Hmmm - no sign of critical thought... <sorry>  We really are on the same side you know.



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Perhaps we are on the same side but it feels like you may be missing the connection between the global temperature effects from the GHG which as a consequence will have an effect and therefor impact on water temperatures and thus more H2O in the atmosphere.  We do, in effect, have some control of the H2O output you mentoin and if the notion of global warmth can be reduced through our efforts to limit and reduce global CO2 output.  If it just continues then CO2, to your argument, is potential helping to create an additional layer (blanket).  

I believe it's important to look to the source not just the symptoms. I respect your opinion and believe you're here to do good- so long as people talk about it and do try to make some change, for what ever reason, then it's all good in the end.I wish I could get 1000 orders for you but I have to believe there are 10s of thousands that traffic this site - why don't you have an ad on this site too???T

ake care,

Billy

 



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Because the water cycle moves so much heat in total every day, we have absolutely no control over it.  If we diverted the output of every nuke, dam, windmill, geothermal, coal, oil, and gas burner in the world, it is less than 1% of the sunlight that falls on the Earth every 12 hours.  A drop in the proverbial bucket. Water (as vapor) is the medium that transports most of that heat!

The reason I don't advertise, or even mention the name of my company, is to avoid being lumped and judged with scammers like Mark, who swoop in and post rubbish as their very first post and try to scam a few easy $$$ before anyone gets wise. 

 I'm well over 100 posts now, and while many don't like what I've got to say, no one can accuse me of coming here with a quick-buck attitude and zero accountability.

 I've tried to help folks and smash a few myths and misconceptions.  I really believe that people should take actions that help rather than harm the environment, but I also believe that we should maximize value.  Sometimes that means consumption.

Here's a situation: my condo association was approached to recycle aluminum cans for $0.25/lb if we deliver them to the center... With the price of fuel >$3.50/gallon and the extra manpower needed, and cistern water $0.06/gal,  a quick computation using the size or our truck showed that the "real cost" to us to recycle was >$2/lb guess what?  We said you may place 1 bin on the property... and take the cans...  They did not do it!  Not cost effective they said.

As a board member I was content to vote against the plan, because the waste of resources to "recycle" was far worse than the "waste" of disposal.   

Yet I keep pursuing my solar-thermal generation system.  Why, because I can harness 1/2 million barrels of oil per day in 5 years, once it catches on.  Who benefits from 1/2 million barrels per day less oil consumed??? I leave that to you...  But I'll say we all do, not because it represents more than a drop in the bucket of daily heat flux, but because it saves 1/2 million barrels of oil for uses where we still have no substitute, like aircraft!



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

The point I was trying to make was that the GHG that we, as humans, put into
the atmosphere, which elevate the temperature of the entire globe, because the
sun has so much energy and if some does not escape back out into space then we
see what we're seeing now - global warming - that in turm has a direct impact
on ocean temperatures. A single degree of increase that is caused by this
"cause and effect" situation will release more H20 into the environment.
So, your H2O GHG argument has limited merit yet seems to miss the bigger
picture...That we do, as a global race, have the power to bring back to some balance
our planet's natural ability to regulate temperature.

I respect that you remain anonymous and provide a healthy debate/perspective
- I think that is what this site is about. I see the ads on this site and
think those that put up, are probably legit and that Mr. Begley's group would
not allow any advertisers on this site that were otherwise. If you need
to get the word out how else can people investigate your product/service
without you putting it out there - either through the posts or as I see it,
supporting this site. I can't imagine this site costs nothing to run and
I don't pay anything to participate here so, I'm guessing those advertisers pay
something and thus provide me/us/you a forum to talk/debate and hopefully learn
and maybe gain perspective along the way.

Your last point of recycling - there will always exist economies of scale
that provide a point of reasonable return for company that is either in the
business or waste management or recycling - your case leaves to few variables unknown
to know why recycling didn't work and really, it should be done for the greater
good without the notion of your HOA making a measly $0.25/lb. Provide the
reasonable alternative to letting aluminum (in all it's forms) from sitting in
a land fill for the next 1000 years rather than allowing a company, that may be
doing good, while turning a profit, to turn your trash (in this case aluminum)
back into something useful without creating the demand for new sources
which absolutely need to be considered in your evaluation of what the
"real" costs are. It will most certainly be the case in 9 times
our of 10 that recycling costs less than harvesting new raw materials to
achieve the same end product.

I appreciate your perspective and you seem like a thoughtful guy, but I have
to say, you seem a little ridged in your beliefs.

Cheers,

Billy



ctyankee
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

The reason H2O is not a problem, and makes much of the GHG arguments moot, is that:

1) it swamps the effect of all other gasses combined.

2) it has a negative feedback effect, i.e. cloud cover reflects a high percentage of the solar flux back into space, *cooling* the atmosphere by as much as 20, 30, 40 degrees per day!

 

Thank you for appreciating the reason I don't go spouting my company pitch.  Most* of the ads on the boars are pretty benign.  They are offerings by companies that in all respects pass the "stink test".  By that I don't find a need to scrape them off the bottom of my shoes.
*There was 1 ad a few weeks ago that did stimulate my gag response, and when the board issues are corrected, you may be able to read it... 

 

Recycling cans... Here we have a profound difference of opinion.  And I'll put it to you this way... "please send me $1750 to cover the defecit of recycling the estimates 1000lb of cans for fiscal year 2008"  Hey, it's for the greater good... what are you waiting for?

See the greater good has now become your burden to carry.  We allowed the company, with it's fleet of trucks free access to out waste stream of Al cans, yet they refused the offer??? Why?  Did you mean to imply that we, the association, owe them a profit?  I didn't think so.  Actually you can easily prove me wrong on this issue by cutting the check.  I will provide certified receipts that the quantity of cans will be recycled.  So the greater good really isn't as compelling an argument as it was in the previous post?

 

Actually, my belief system is very easy to define and defend. 

I believe in the Scientific Method.  I've reversed opinions 180 degrees when new proof or better theories come along that better fit the observed data.  1 piece of bad data can destroy even a cherished theory.  A real theory is also able to make predictions about new never before seen circumstanced.  When a prediction is made the theory can either be reinforced but never proved, or the theory can be discredited.  It's a high stakes game!

I believe in the laws of economics.  While they involve the behaviors of people, the axiom of "what a prudent person would do" has as an underlying assumption which is "in the absence of an agenda".  I use this test whenever the question of "will they or won't they?" comes up.  But since it specifically ignores the issue of agenda, it is a blunt tool.

In those two I am extremely rigid, because they are the framework on which all my other beliefs are based upon.

 

I hope the little insight into me explains why I'm so taken aback by so many "popular positions". 

Science, digested for the masses, is less rigorous, and more open to interpretation, is frequently misunderstood, and propagated.

Decisions as to how money will be spent are frequently overridden by agendas, even when the transaction is deemed "imprudent".

These two loopholes are the stock & trade of the political class.  Again I leave you to draw the appropriate conclusions.

Regards, 

 



childress
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

I believe in the laws of economics. While they involve the behaviors
of people, the axiom of "what a prudent person would do" has as an
underlying assumption which is "in the absence of an agenda". I use
this test whenever the question of "will they or won't they?" comes
up. But since it specifically ignores the issue of agenda, it is a
blunt tool.

The Prius is a counter-example of this, or better, soci-economics: When
I had it, I don't know how many times I stood across from someone at
the gas pump, who had a perfectly servicable paid-off vehicle say "I
gotta get me one of those" even though for most it made absolutely no
economic sense to get into a $300-500 a month car payment to combat
filling up the tank cost of $50-70 (once you factor in other things,
like new car insurance rates, etc). I'm not making the arguement
against a Prius being a good economic choice, but only if you're in the
market for a car.

Instantaneous price pressures are more difficult for American's to
fight off than than those that are spread-out; as a society we're not
trained to do long-term economic cost analysis: modern cloth diapers are
another good example -- you pay $200-500 up front costs to get started,
and that will diaper pretty much all your kiddos... if you go nutz on
the high end dipes, you can go $1,000-2,000 or more quite easily. But
again, it takes care of all your kiddos (and has a high resale value -
50-80%). Disposables will run you $1,000-2,000 per kiddo. But it's easier for most to stomache because it only costs you $20-40 a week (assuming
non-multiple births) tacked on to your grocery bill, so it's really
hard to discern the true cost. Or inkjet cartridges <shudder> to
fill that "comes free with your new 'puter" printer. Free as in
teenager-eating-you-out-of-the-house free. Much better off with a
laserwriter. I've had $40 laserwriter cartriges last me YEARS.

I had a good friend with me in the car and he was disucssing getting
rid of his almost-paid-off vehicle for a Prius in a desire to be more
green AND save more green. It got decent mileage (so 18-25mpg) I told
him he'd be better off paying off his current vehicle, continue saving
the monthly payment to create a downpayment and seeing what comes from
Toyota in '09 / '10 to compete with the Chevy Volt.

It could be argued that the people that use disposable diapers, buy cars when they're not economically a sound choice and feed their inkjets do not fall under the category 'prudent', and I would agree. Sadly though, they do fall under the category of 'Average American' and by 'Average' I really mean 'most'.

--

Commute Suck?  Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike 



childress
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

H2O (water) can exist in 3 states:  Solid (Ice) liquid (that which we commonly call 'water') and gas -- water vapor, often seen amassed as clouds in the sky.  Water vapor is a very potent insulator of heat (see muggyness on high-humidity days), and how cloud-free evenings are much cooler than cloudy nights.

Sadly you are by your lack of knowledge in fact proving ctyankee's point regarding Global Warming as a religeon.  However this is fixed easily enough by educating yourself a bit more.  Watching (or re-watching) Al Gore's 'An Inconvenient Truth,' would be helpful, and the link to the Nova special on PBS's website.

--

Commute Suck?  Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike 



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

I say water as it is most commonly referred to and I'm not retarded and more
familiar with the facts than you realize...The topic is "Global
Warming" not regional warming...I've taken plenty of weather science
courses to understand the blanket effect that a cloud has but that is a far cry
from the issue we're discussing...I guess we can agree to disagree and there in
lies the problem.  You call it religion - I think there is plenty of evidence
that is visual, right in front our noses to the effects we humans are
having...to counter that is, in my opinion your own form of religion that
you've just decided to make up...I'm signing off from this debate and wish you
all well - I love this site and hope it helps in some way educate us all on
what we can and should do.

Perhaps you should put an ad on this site- I do see other solar companies
and related products.

Cheers!

Billy 



childress
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

I apologize: I make no assumptions on the Internet with respect to level of education/knowledge nor level of ability to use the English language (or which dialect - US/Canadian/England/Indian/Filipino).  Therefore my directness and perhaps overly didactic reply.  I correspond with folks from Germany to fix the Twike, and they don't speak/type perfect US English, but it's darn better than my German!  So I do not assume.

There is more to water vapor in the atmosphere than 'the blanket/shadow effect' of a cloud, and calling water 'not a gas' and a lack of understanding why it is the most potent green house gas and yet not on the Kyoto list indicates additional research/educational work needs to be done.  Regional warming and Global Warming are by their very nature, linked (see growth of the Sahara Desert).

Religion is often described by the non-religious as a belief in something to explain that which is not understood.  They call it 'faith'.  Not knowing water is a very potent (yet virtually uncontrollable) green house gas indicates not fully understanding the basics, giving supporting evidence to ctyankee's assertion of the existence of a religious-like belief in Global Warming.  See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas and you'll find water vapour is the first GHG listed...

Failure to understand that this is not MY argument but I am merely making an observation (and I don't have a solar company), indicates a reading comprehension/attention to details error.  I for one have drunk the Kool-Aide and and like you believe in Global Warming.  But then I also believe that we were created because the Earth thought 'Hey, I need plastic.  I don't have any, I think I'll support human life to make me some plastic".*  

But I fear I have been overly didactic again, so another apology is in order for having put you off.

M@

* Shamelessly paraphrased from George Carlin.  It's a good Earth Day read
to put things in perspective -- Google "george carlin earth plastic".

--

Commute Suck?  Twike it -- you'll like it!

www.uiuc.edu/goto/twike 



Billy345
Re: Global Warming - I love that it's finally getting attention

Points taken -

 

I hope you all have a wonderful evening!

 

Cheers,

 

Billy 



jstack6
jstack6's picture
Re: Global Warming - the attention it deserves

It's about time. I hope it's not to late.

solar stacks

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solar stacks



Stanley Stein
Re: Global Warming - the attention it deserves

Global Warming/Environmentalism as Religion.

This so called greatest challenge facing mankind is the challenge of distinguishing reality from fantasy, truth from propaganda.  We must institute far more stringent requirements for what constitutes knowledge in the environmental realm.  I am thoroughly sick of politicized so-called facts that simply aren't true.  More and more groups are doing us a disservice by putting out its lies, pure and simple.  Falsehoods that they know are false.

Global warming is a Religion and has it's zealots as followers.  Global Warming has all the elements of religion.  Creation of the Devine, Original Sin, Garden of Eden - and then its got penance.  The most important element that it has is faith, because the people who believe it can't prove it, period.  

Because in the end, science offers us the only way out of politics.  And if we allow science to become politicized as the Al Gorebasims want us to do, then we are lost.  We will enter the Internet version of the dark ages, an era of shifting fears and wild prejudices, transmitted to people who don't know any better.  That's not a good future for the human race.  That's our past.  So it's time to abandon the religion of environmentalism, and return to the science of environmentalism and base our public policy decisions firmly on that. 

Thank you alot.